The new Tauruses have a good rep, far better then the P320 or P365. Wheee!!. Where is this lightning striking twice? The investigation revealed the use of an incorrect holster not designed for a [SIG] P320, said the statement, which was released Friday and posted to a U.S. online pro-industry publication, Soldier Systems. And people have a way of looking for ways to deflect blame for those discharges, especially when they stand to lose their job as a result. Yes, its reliable, but no more so than most other major brands well known models. Upgrades are for things that didnt work right in the first place. Heres the version of the report that ran later that night, during ABCs Nightline program . Just 3 days ago, a Florida Corrections recruit killed herself by a negligent discharge during firearms training. Aint been nothing but problems since the military dropped the 1911, what was it 85 year of trusted service? What I can say is that article reads like a hit piece on the individuals who may or may not of made mistakes with their firearms from someone who worships at the alter of sig. He said there has to be something wrong with the gun if this is happening to individuals with this amount of training, this amount of skill.. selling the 365 with strikers breaking? Theyre the only product that is not. Canadian soldier wounded by accidental discharge used wrong holster: SIG Sauer When he put his hand on the grip, the weapon fired, according to the lawsuit. Hes talking about trial lawyers recruiting clients whove experienced negligent discharges with P320s and suing the gun manufacturer. I wouldnt be surprised if she did it intentionally, she clearly suffers from a serious case of media whoring. The trigger bar has to push up on it, for it to release. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ZZ6pynGLM What exactly did Harrison mean by legal momentum? That isnt clear, but its easy to make an educated guess. In a world of "innovative" guns, this truly is an innovated design and a step in the right direction for the future of pistols. It somehow moved to the hinges of the desk. The Glocks lack of a manual safety has caused untold thousands of needless cripplings and death. Finger on the trigger and muzzle discipline are sometimes unheralded. Charlton posted to the online commercial forum Canadian Gun Nutz, describing the CBC News piece as inaccurate and promising SIG Sauer would release a statement. Everyone knows Glocks are the absolute pinnacle of perfection and have never had one single defect ever! I agree. If it was so bad, why did the US Marines, who had the Glock, drop it in favor of the carry sized P320, the M18? In 1982 the G17 hit the market and in 1983 they gave 30,000 pistols to the Austrian military at cost. The list is long proving gun manufactures were well aware of this problem now for 121 years yet they abandoned this when the Glock infested the gun market. Dude, your story is THREE years old. Plastic crap! Not sure why it wont let me reply to you, but Ill reply to myself in the hope youll get it. (unless theyre SWAT or something). The design was incorporated from Bruce Grays trigger kit around the time of the original drop safety fix. It did not originally have this. Sounds like most of these cases were off-body carry. Mine is very accurate. I dont own a Glock or a SIG and am not a fanboy of either. Have heard of no issues like the alleged gremlin caused spontaneous discharges of the P320 in other Sig models. I still own them all. So are dumb(or arrogant) cops. Profits over reliability and you end up with junk. Without a loser pays tort system, such abuse will go on and on. The weapon had a history of going off unexpectedly when it was dropped at a certain angle. First off, no joke on me. Additional questions about the Voluntary Upgrade Program are answered in the FAQ. SIG just cannot seem to make a striker fired pistol that doesnt have issues. Had a buddy, years ago, that was a deputy for Orange County in California. Not much detail is provided in any of those other claimed incidents, but a few stand out. Great job, this threat needed some levity! You have entered an incorrect email address! Theyre just on a 30 year nap hoping what they did will carry them forever. The incident with the P320 - a contender for a major Canadian Armed Forces procurement of thousands of pistols and holsters that has a Aug. 3 deadline for industry proposals - occurred at JTF-2's Dwyer Hill training range just west of Ottawa. I mean hey, yelling about firearms preferences online is no more productive than discussing nerdy Star Trek stuff, is it? So far I have only heard of one instance (post fix) where there was an ND and the post mortem on the gun demonstrating a mechanical failure. Just because someone shoots hyper-unrealistic 3 gun competition, subscribes to Recoil magazine and routinely watches their fave rave YouTube cult of personality channel shill for the latest company that paid him off doesnt make them a [emailprotected]$$. , 54 people all shooting themselves. ABCs own hired consultant, who appears to have no dog in these fights, asserted that he could find no reasonable explanation for these claims and that he considers the upgraded P320 pistols safe for sale to law enforcement and the public. Canadian Special Forces Command has not said what caused the gun to go off unexpectedly, but the company said a conclusion has been reached. Not just police in US had issues with sig p320. A fellow kept his DA revolver in the desk. How about something more relevant. . And yes, if I pulled some of those stunts, Id have my membership revoked. The VIP screening with the meet and greet was like $600. Theres still the P938 extractors snapping they refuse to acknowledge. You should always use a real holster, or carry it condition 3 or 4 if its off-body. I bought a P320 and went through the voluntary upgrade. Too Many Accidents Then theres the fact that the branches of the military have put the P320 design through their own batteries of testing and found it duty worthy. Even if it was an issue with the sear interface, there is still a firing pin safety that will not move unless the trigger is held firmly to the rear. She didnt sue, but swore she would never own another Volvo again. Yes, a lot of police officers only shoot when they have to for qual. Sig P320 is just one of many pistols with Safety related. When he put his hand on the grip, the weapon fired, according to the lawsuit. The 1911 had one added, the FN 1905 had one added in 1906. They have hundreds of thousands of P320s in regular service now and, despite a search, we couldnt find a rash of reports of soldiers claiming their pistols are firing on their own. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Charlton, headquartered in Victoria, B.C., for comment on its original story, but neither responded. Fourth, no one takes Taurus seriously. That is exactly why all civilized countries have Government Agencies that monitor companies that have a callus disregard for human life and are only interested in the quick buck. If this were a car, a phone, a refrigerator, it would have been recalled long ago. Whats this silly BS? and youve gotten this far reading our thread. While it seems that I have a preference for battle ships, The Romulans had Warbirds. Ron, This is what happens when you go with the lowest bidder. Thats the American system at work in all its corrupt majesty. LEO handguns get into struggles, they get laid and rolled on, they get smacked into vehicles/doorways, they get dropped, they get drawn and holstered way more often than their civilian counterparts. JTF-2 is the only unit in. I could care but that came at the expense of reliability and safety. Depending on who you talk to you will get many different answers. Bagnell also represented Virginia Sheriffs Deputy Marcie Vadnais who sued SIG when she said her P320 went off on its own when she was removing the weapon from her belt. Vadnais was featured in the Nightline version of ABCs report. When a consumer product is likely to be operated in such a way that it causes accidents because it is way too easy to make a serious mistake because of human error when operating it the manufactures are told that the machine must be made safer. While this incident occurred months ago, this erroneous media report is driven by multiple sources, including our competitors, and coincides with the imminent release of other Canadian military and law enforcement tenders, indicating the timing of its release is an attempt to improperly influence the procurements, the statement said. Post again when you buy a real gun that you can defend yourself with. Bagnells and other lawsuits ABC claims at least 54 discharges and 10 suits against SIG describe instances of P320s going off dating back to 2016, prior to the upgrade. They function as commanded every time. Excellent work. An x-ray (fluoroscope) of the mechanism in operation could show what, if anything, is happening inside the gun that might prove, or disprove, the contention that the gun is flawed. Sig Sauer P320 (Christine Peterson/TNS) February 22, 2021 Ryan Morgan Gunmaker Sig Sauer is facing a new lawsuit from a U.S. federal agent who claims his holstered P320 pistol discharged without him pulling the trigger and struck him in his upper right hip. The claim basically boils down to the notion that in normal, unconcerning operation, a foreign body entered the striker body. This is just blind greed using some careless doofus to sell a lie and cash in because a civil jury, like the average American voter, can be manipulated easily though emotion, tears and stories of anguish, pain and suffering at the foot of some super-rich evil corporations cold-blooded behest. Holding the striker fully cocked with nothing to block it if the sear fails is questionable at best. 35446 Views 56 Replies 41 Participants Last post by tirod, Sep 1, 2021. This website has been messed up all week so that might be the problem in replying. NO, SIG has a problem that they would rather fight in court. But this time, the sound bites used were different. So the tally goes against the surrounding area, not against the gun free zone. It has an unsafe takedown procedure that requires you to pull the trigger to get the slide off. The one officer in the ABC story had it wrapped in a rag in his gym bag? Got a 40 SW P320 SC on my hip now, got one in 9mm within reach, so far neither has decided to trip the sear without my help. If they recruit smart cops, they wont have cops who will act against their political opponents outside of the constitution. As a result, the P320s were withdrawn from service, leaving the JTF-2 with their older P226s. The sheriff's office said its investigation found no mechanical problems with its deputy's gun. Anyway around here they do. BAM. According to Section 22.05 of the Texas Penal Code, engaging in deadly conduct with a firearm is considered a felony of the third degree. Being prosecuted and convicted of a third degree felony in Texas can lead to: Incarceration in a Texas state prison for a term of two years or up to 10 years. You need a lead that can be the lightening rod and not be afraid to make an ass of themselvesit give the watcher permission to take it seriously. The linkage isnt, but the way the striker leg and sear face mate up, the two materials being MIM castings, the small camming action, etc. Milwaukee Police Report Issues With Sig P320's Discharging By Tom Knighton | 11:30 AM on October 30, 2021 AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast Several years ago, there was an issue discovered with the. The same should hold true for the insane marketing of pistols like the totally unsafe Glock. In my opinion, the only reason SIG would have done that is if they knew there was a safety problem with the original gun, otherwise they would not have done it., Scott says Harrison reviewed the claims in Officer Hiltons lawsuit and said, its unclear to (Harrison) what could now be causing misfires in the upgraded guns., Scott then asked Harrison if he believes the P320 should be removed from the marketplace. Im a Kirk guy, a Shatner Kirk guy. With the redesign, you would have to implement a LOT of force to move the trigger backwards. Whats the difference between a $600 Sig and a $300 Taurus? TidalWave Professional Aug 25, 2021 #17 Bassbob said: Somehow I seriously doubt the guns just shot themselves. Sig, take this firearm off the market, and recall. in Capitalvania. There used to be a problem, which is why Sig fixed it. ALL OF THEM. The latest of these suits was filed last week in US District Court in Massachusetts. And they would not have done that for no reason at all. A fine of up to $10,000. It was expensive. Thats deflecting from the real issue. My bet would be that someone had a fully loaded gun in a gym bag and a cloth or rag snagged the trigger. I dunno if its a case of lowest bidders blues or what. Still waiting. Mechanical engagement of sear to striker not deep enough (wanted lighter, smoother trigger pull without giving it any hand workmanship required with the deep notch much safer classic systems made since 1900) Result another big fail. Trigger is lighter than the Glock, it took years of aggressive training to reach the point of acceptable discharges with the Glock. In the case of the 320, lightning is striking the same place an awful lot. congrats. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jsu6WsSQ2_g. These suits allege that their ultra-popular P320 pistol can fire without the trigger being pulled. Or you would have to have enough slide play for the slide movement to physically disengage the sear and striker leg mating surfaces. As for the Serpa holster, this is a bunch of internet echo chamber BS that originated with Obama-era federal agencies putting a bad light on a good product in order to sway public opinion and thus damage the manufacturers bottom line. SIG doesnt so you get killed by a punk with a Hi Point. It has been flawless so far. Fact is most SF carry what they want and the Marine Recon I know very well who has friends in that community told me many in the Navy NSW program still carry the Mk 25, they don want a striker fired pistol that can hydrolock in water. Hes like the arrogant star QB on your favorite football teamyeah, you would never want to spend a weekend with him at the lake cabin, but your franchise would be little to nothing without him. Then Weve got to go 9mm Nato. And hasnt been nothing but looking for the holy grail since. They mandate more discharges, with more property damage, more injuries, and more deaths. The Glock fails on both counts. Lastly, ship-wise I have to go with the TMP-era refit Enterprise, regardless of Captain. But when you set a gun down on a table, and the damn thing goes off seconds after you let go, that sounds like a defective gun. The cost of settlements will be passed on to us. Trust a P365 with your life. How many times did Shatner actually watch it? Dont quote the four rules of safety in your article when all the hotness in the gun world is appendix carry pointing something at an extremity and the photos you use showing front slide serrationsputting your hands fingers near the business end of the barrel, because press checks from the front is the way all the cool operator guys do it. (a) A person commits an offense if the person recklessly discharges a firearm inside the corporate limits of a municipality having a population of 100,000 or more. To me it was unreal, $600 to ask a question about WOK and a picture. -You plan on getting rid of your P320, great! On the other hand, would we also condemn him for violating Rule 2 if the bullet had travelled through his outside wall, entered the adjacent house, and killed a resident thereof, or would we maybe, just maybe, place some blame on the manufacturer who created the pistol? Its just that with hundreds of millions of firearms in the hands of more than one-third of the countrys population including a lot of cops some number of negligent discharges will inevitably happen. Oct 20, 2022 #36 ; vh20 said: . Bravo. Either one could have been a gun or a Barbie. Bagnell said he thinks the discharges are due to both design and manufacturing flaws on SIGs part. And it doesnt take too much Googling to find plenty of reports of LEOs suing the Georgia company as well (see here, here, here, and here for just a few). Its hard to say yet but with anything follow the basic safety rules. There are a few examples, I admitS&Ws M&P from around 2014 were near junk and I wouldnt have bothered to own one as a trotline weight, but apparently S&W had righted that ship since then. Result: Sig P320 goes off when dropped and shoots people. Was it his fault? I can say one thing for sure, the X on the side of the my is about is welcoming to me as grip zone was. Have you ever noticed that big trouble usually comes in groups of 3. there is no better. This will include an alternate design that reduces the physical weight of the trigger, sear, and striker while additionally adding a mechanical disconnector. CBC News reached out to Sig Sauer and its Canadian distributor, M.D. This is the only post fix tale of p320 failure I have heard that is not some form of but it just went off, I didnt do nutthin! LOL! Sig Sauer's headquarters are located in New Hampshire at Pease International Tradeport. L. LRRifleman . And thats just my opinion. This guy had been working at the LGS for over a decade and never had an AD or ND, he was the strictest when it came to safety. The more someone touches, loads, clears, cleans, holsters, un-holsters, or otherwise deals with their firearm, the higher the statistical likelihood that complacence kicks in. The clearest memory I have about the many people experiencing post-upgrade discharges is a cop who set his P320 on a table, and several seconds after letting go, IT DISCHARGED ON ITS OWN! Police Department, was wounded when his P320 duty gun discharged without a trigger pull while he was carrying it in a gym bag wrapped carefully with a cloth. Officer Collette was wounded in his left leg. . Miraculously, no one was hit by the bullet, which ricocheted around inside the vehicle. The new guy sucks. There was nothing wrong with the Glock action, it was a training issue. Theyve now come to the attention of the legacy media. Search Texas Statutes. These lawsuits arent about Sig making a defective weapon, theyre about lawyers building a nationwide consensus in civil trial that makes it easier (and more lucrative) to soak gunmakers. Who knows. That focus drifts. He points to it in the video. Wow new finger grooves, crazy innovation. He takes your wallet and car and leaves the SIG. Face it, you paid far too much for a plastic gun. Google Keith Slatowski, is he lying also? I have been purchasing and using Sig firearms exclusively for over 40 years. Liberal, Conservative. After watching a friend get killed by a Remington 700 by another friend and the ensuing fallout 31 years ago I decided that I didnt care if the P320 was fixed, it was getting sold. The Milwaukee Police Department reports "multiple unexplained accidental discharges" of the Sig Sauer P320 9mm, a gun all officers are required to carry, making for more than 1,600 firearms. First, keep in mind that allegations made in lawsuits are not statements of fact. These lawsuits ARE about SIG making defective weapons. Anyway my question for $600 would be: Did you have your 3rd wife killed? He was told to shoot two rounds. Sometimes you dont get what you pay for but now SIG has bragging rights. He had to be reprimanded by the range officer twice for unsafe handling of his pistol. The military is much smarter and no, the gun is not junk. Golly didnt Sig catch he!! But just the same- a gun going off from momentum? Back in 2017, SIG instituted a voluntary upgrade program to replace the original production triggers with new enhanced triggers designed to fix the issue that we and others observed when the pistols were dropped onto hard surfaces. This subject has two prongs; One is the negligence of those who have shot themselves with 320s through violations of Rule 2, the other the possible mechanical design failing of the gun. A holstered base P320 allegedly had a mysterious accidental discharge without pulling the trigger. Grow up, you aint all that! To make the striker leg pull off of the sear, you would have to impart a lot of rearward momentum and stop it suddenly. Attorney Bagnell held up the law enforcement officers he represents as examples of people who are highly trained in carrying and using firearms. Legal Penalties. Yaaay! Rather, it's because those LEO P320 pistols are seeing much more physical action than ones carried by civilians. 00:03. Who function tests their firearm 1) with a round in the chamber, and 2) when its pointed at an extremity? This gun had been voluntary upgraded. The moral of all of this is the reason Sig got the military contract was because they were selling guns at close to cost, they underbid Glock by a significant margin. Note the addition of ominous background music in the second seven-minutes-longer version (there was no music in the Good Morning America version). brakes, remember? But Im observant enough to see the same voices that said in 1985 that This new fangled Glock is a just a plastic toy! The truth is the absolute WORST semi-autos that Sig, H&K, Walther, Beretta or Glock makes today are more reliable than the best semi-autos made 40 years ago, by far. The American manufacturer of the new pistols belonging to Canadas special forces claims the soldier wounded in an accidental discharge last fall was using the wrong holster for the weapon. The round went downrange so nobody was hurt. Glock's and Sig P320 are all designated as Double-Action-Only fire control mechanisms. One, the energy necessary to lift the striker-securing safety plunger may be insufficient due to a too-weak spring, or a too-light plunger, or some other design flaw, to reliably engage the plunger where it belongs. Bagnell told TTAG that he believes the problem with the striker-fired P320 is an inadequate sear/striker connection (he has images he says illustrate this on his website). Heres the version that ran Tuesday morning during the networks Good Morning America program . Harrison stated that, I have not seen enough to convince me that the upgraded version is dangerous., When ABCs David Scott asked Harrison if its a mystery whats going wrong with the updated version though Harrison had just stated the upgraded pistol isnt dangerous Harrison said, I do not have an explanation for why the updated version should have complaints from trained individuals. Its the expert who gets caught up in the routine and stops paying attention. What a wonderful parody of a MAC cultist! No autographs, No self taken pictures. TAMPA, Fla., July 27, 2021 /PRNewswire/ -- A 30-year veteran law enforcement officer with the Tampa Police Department (TPD) today filed a lawsuit against Sig Sauer, Inc., the maker of his. (It wasnt my gun). 3 disaster is true and if it is Sig will go all out to cover it up if it was. Sig P320 Accidental Discharge 2021 Perhaps nothing speaks more clearly to the need for a total recall than the fact that in 2021, over four years after Sig Sauer offered its voluntary upgrade, people are still suffering injuries and lawsuits continue to be filed. Trying to categorically say Brand X is better than Brand Y! Its also interesting that theres apparently no corresponding flood of civilian lawsuits against SIG with similar claims of guns going off, even though the public owns far more P320s than do law enforcement agencies. Neither argument is relevant or very intelligent and certainly not useful. That wont last for long, the P320 (M17 AND M18) are already failing in the field. So I think it is unconscionable, given the number of incidents of this gun defectively discharging without a trigger pull, would necessitate that someone order it to be recalled and only SIG can do that.. It provides another example of how the gun free zone purportedly keeps people safe by not only keeping guns away, but by requiring more discharges nearby. Thats fine. Withe the P320 Sigs contract was $169.5 million, $103 million cheaper then Glock. While good firearms training and practices among law enforcement officers is certainly the case much of the time, weve seen far too many instances over the years of un-safe or downright dangerous practices by allegedly highly trained individuals to apply that kind of blanket endorsement to all cops or alphabet agency employees. 19 Feb 2021 Military.com | By Matthew Cox A former U.S. Marine and federal agent has filed a $10 million lawsuit against Sig Sauer Inc. alleging that his holstered Sig P320 -- a pistol. Hilton has filed a $15 million lawsuit alleging the P320 has a serious design and manufacturing flaw. Oh, if you another thread reader asking Wheres the Sig/Glock bashing? Not only is it now the designated sidearm of all branches of the U.S. military, there are over a million of them in civilian hands. It was at that point that I knew the gun had a design flaw. The problem was strikers. Maybe its a technical issue, maybe its a training issue. . Effectively: you must be this dumb to get this job. Quit blaming cops or the military, these guns have a serious problem. Dont care for them, not my jam. 2) The p320 does have a half cocked notch. This highly trained Fibbie was doing flips while dancing (breakdancing? Pity that some of the most common reactions fall into two over simplistic categories: 1. I would rather play handball with the Devil himself because if you deal with the Devil he will tell you that you agreed to lose your soul for a big box full of millions in cash. This reminds me of when Gretchen Carlson sued Fox News for sexual harassment and she got 20 million dollars. They are plaintiffs versions of what they say happened. A plastic gun that has a tendency to go off by itself. Sigs bid was low because they were still pissed after being beat by Beretta in cost. He wanted TTAG to convey that hes pro-Second Amendment. It offers the quality and reliability of Sig Sauer, with a tried and true striker system and ingenious features that make it a novel gun. The claimed mode of failure was that the tab on the drop safety that interferes with the striker movement had been sheered off and stopped being a drop safety. Sigs suck and my Glock is awesome!. The suit also cites other occurrences of "un-commanded" discharges with the 320 while holstered. Harrison responded, No, I dont think the upgraded version should be recalled, in fact I think the previous version should be recalled so that everyone has the upgraded version.. Stupid marine, cop, citizen, its their fault. I think in the end even if there is no mechanical defect (dont hold your breath) it will be found that the Sig is causing accidental discharges for the same reason the Glock does, because if you snag the trigger on the Sig model that does not have a manual safety (some do) the gun will accidentally fire. The Glocks trigger had caught on a fold in the leather holster and it pushed the trigger part way back. They admitted their problem and fixed it. The suit mirrors lawsuits filed across the country involving the semi-automatic gun known as the P320. I just separate Shatner the man from Kirk the character, which he plays with Shakespearian operatic perfection. His haste to avoid the embarrassment of his gun being seen on the floor turned the incident from a wardrobe malfunction (accidental exposure of a concealed weapon, probably just a reprimand from the OPR) into a negligent discharge (the gun being fired led to him personally getting fired!). It nicely describes what has to happen in a striker-fired P320 for an un-commanded discharge to happen as the plaintiffs have claimed. LOL! So even if, as the ambulance chaser claims, the striker leg could vibrate off of the sear face, it could not discharge unless the drop safety was also disengaged because the drop safety prevents movement of the striker sufficient to make the firing pin protrude from the breech face. That took a lot. The modular SIG P320 is among the most widely-owned handguns on the planet. Companies stay silent In this version, Bridge City Officer Brittany Hilton tells her story of what she says happened when her P320 discharged as she was carrying it in her purse in what appears to be a SERPA holster (which has had its own problems, but thats another story). It has nothing to do with Glock. When he opened the drawer the hinges pulled the Charters trigger. SIG ultimately settled that lawsuit. I own Serpa holsters in multiple configurations (1911, Beretta 96, H&K, Springfield, etc) for most of the time theyve been around and I NEVER had an ND. The SIG will be the shortest military contract for guns in history. in 2021," Bagnell said of the overall scope of the concern . SIG is choosing to litigate their problems away. It may be a rotten trigger, but it does highlight the fact it has a much lighter trigger compared to classic semi-autos and revolvers. You need to deliberately thumb the Pythons hammer back to get that trigger pull, each and every time. The problems associate with those pistols (and the P365) have long since been ironed out. Some of the plaintiffs claim the pistol can fire without the trigger even being touched. The thing I hate is getting kicked around! They wouldnt have adopted it if was. Unless they have to fire their weapon in an on-duty incident most officers only fire their weapons just before and/or at qualifications, which depending on the department are annual or semi-annual. The federal government intends to order up to 20,000 pistols for the military to replace its Second World War-era Browning Hi-Power handguns in a project that could be worth up to $50 million. Big public relations disaster and Sig tries a second time to get the piece of shit to work and not go off when dropped. In June, Cambridge police Lt. Thomas Ahern filed suit, accusing Sig Sauer of selling a dangerously defective product after his P320 fired on its own while he was in the department's SWAT team van with six other officers.